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this is James Randi and you're listening

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me

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Oh

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hello and welcome to the skeptic zone

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show number 46 for the 4th of sep tember

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2009 Richard Saunders here with you from

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Sydney Australia and through the

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paranormal magic of the supernatural i'm

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also a dragon con atlanta USA and see

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the paranormal magic of the supernatural

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or the fact that i'm recording this

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earlier than the shows going out look

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you decide it's one or the other but

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we're having a great time at Dragon Con

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dr. Reggie Kylie Sturgis and I and we're

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getting some good interviews look out

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for those coming up over the next few

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weeks and while you're waiting for those

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I'll bring your attention to a new

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website grass roots skeptics dot org to

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quote the press release press release to

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these skeptics are getting serious there

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are a lot of passionate advocates and

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community groups working diligently to

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advance critical thinking said

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grassroots skeptics founder KO Myers we

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want to help increase their

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effectiveness by making it easier for

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them to find new members share resources

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and identify methods for getting their

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message out so why not check them out

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HTTP colon slash slash grass roots

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skeptics dot org and while you're

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surfing around the internet check out a

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new blip TV channel i have come across

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called quack TV HTTP colon slash slash

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quack TV blip TV and so to this week's

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episode of the skeptic zone it really

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should be called the iran so give

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skeptic zone this week iran sir give

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interviews Queensland skeptic Margaret

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kitson she talks about her life in

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skepticism and about the upcoming

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Australian skeptics national convention

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in Brisbane Queensland that'll be in

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November that's followed by a grain of

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salt with Iran sir give oh well sounds

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like an interesting show to me let's get

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Margaret kitson is a teacher librarian

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and a longtime skeptic she's currently

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the Secretary of Queensland skeptics and

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he's involved in the organization of the

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2009 skeptics convention which will be

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held in Brisbane I called Margaret to

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hear about her life skepticism and of

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course the convention hello our grits

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and welcome to the skeptic zone hello

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Iran it's lovely to be talking to you on

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what is a beautiful beautiful sunday in

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Brisbane it's all so beautiful in Sydney

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and we really should be outside rather

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than locked inside on the computer don't

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you think I think so I think so and I'm

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just really really hoping that at the

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end of the year when the Australian

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skeptics national convention comes to

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Brisbane for the first time since 2001

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that we have wonderful weather end of

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spring hopefully it'll be really nice

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not too hot I hope so too mother let's

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let I want to talk to you about yourself

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as together yes thank you involved with

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the skeptics for a very long time I had

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when you first become involved with the

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scriptures ok my first connection with

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the skeptics came when I was teaching at

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a school in Darwin and I saw a copy of

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the magazine and in a library at a

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school that I was working at and I

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looked at it because what jumped out at

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me was the front cover which had a

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wonderful cartoon dealing with creation

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science and earlier in my life in my

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professional career I'd had some

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encounters with creation scientists and

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I become a fade away yes an oxymoron

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indeed the creation and science don't

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belong in the same sentence together so

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that was when I became that came a

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subscriber around about 2,000 I went to

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my first convention which was the Big E

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that was held in Sydney the three-day

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which there was skeptical luminaries

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from all around the world which came to

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that Paul Kurtz james randi made a

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special guest appearance

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Joe Nickell and Richard Wiseman I really

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can't remember the Mott was absolutely

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an amazing event so that was when I

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became a conference junkie and I've been

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to just about every single one since

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then i went to tam 5 the amazing meeting

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I went to the one of those in January

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2007 and Las Vegas you mentioned that

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your first involvement with the skeptics

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was I had something to do with the

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creation scientists so-called gradient

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noticed can you elaborate on that and

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how that attracted you okay as I said

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that was why I became a subscriber to

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the magazine back in the 1970s I was

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teaching at a high school in the

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northern suburbs of brisbane and we had

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a very interesting political situation

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back in those days where certain people

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of certain religious persuasions had a

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real in with the certain people within

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the government which meant that it was

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the only time fortunately that the

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creation science movement had a lot of

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traction politically this particular

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school that I was working out I was

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working as a teacher librarian and one

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of the things that you have to do as a

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teacher librarian was to catalog books

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and I had a staff member who sadly was

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the head of science coming to me with

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some books on creation science it was my

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first encounter with any of the

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literature that was published by people

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with this particular agenda and told me

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that I needed to catalog books in the

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500s in the five 70s which is the gioi

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decimal number for life sciences so that

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they sat next to evolution and here was

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a head of science who should have known

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better telling me a humanities graduate

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that this stuff was science and it had

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to sit on this shelf next to science my

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argument to him was that no it's not a

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science it's actually a religious theory

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so therefore it belongs somewhere in the

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200s which was where those books

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anything on creation the correct number

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for its at 213 because that's

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for it so um set myths and legends no

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myths and legends tend to end up

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somewhere else to hundreds the hundred

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division and Joey free religions and we

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ended up having a couple of real set

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tues where I spoke my mind and he spoke

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use in the workroom in this particular

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library and I stuck to my guns but there

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was quite a lot of interference at that

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stage the year nine science program in

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Queensland schools there was the

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expectation that the two models actually

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be taught evolution and creation but

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that was and it was the old equal time

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argument and I suppose that was when I

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started to think what is creation

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science all about and why do I have a

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huge problem with it now I don't have a

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science background but I do have a

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history background and I do have a

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background in ancient history i've

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taught senior ancient history for a

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number of years and do know that that

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area of history reasonably well one of

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the things that you do learn is that the

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story of Noah has come as written up in

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the book of genesis in the Bible isn't

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even original it's an adaptation from a

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much Julius story that's you know in a

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very very early document called the epic

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of gilgamesh and Gilgamesh in one part

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goes off to meet this so-called napisz

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Tom who's supposedly got the secret of

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eternal life and wouldn't a push piston

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and the Babylonian version was the

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original Noah and then there's an even

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earlier Sumerian version back even

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further that's been found so I'm taking

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the Bible is literal fact and being able

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to say that it's science I know from my

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professional expertise is absolute

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nonsense and that's one thing that I've

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learnt in the meantime is about the

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scientific method that one of the great

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things when you get a scientific theory

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is that you get convergence of evidence

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evidence coming from lots of different

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source

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is that all end up pointing to the same

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conclusion and that's certainly the case

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with creation science that you don't

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need to be a scientist to be able to

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turn round and say I'm sorry it's

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bollocks if you've got an understanding

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of history and how stories start and

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where they come from and how people

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adopt them and then move with them you

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realize that their stories in the Old

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Testament our lifted from earlier

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versions there's some you know new bits

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and pieces but to say that that the

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Bible and the book of Genesis is factors

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is nonsense and it should doesn't have

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any time in science so that was why I

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was passionate about it to start with

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and it's been to use the term an

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evolution of my skepticism in the

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meantime I didn't necessarily realize

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that there were other people out there

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that had similar thought processes to me

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and it's been lovely in the intervening

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time to meet up with members of the

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skeptical community I've really really

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enjoyed it and it's all down to creation

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science is the reason it was the hook

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that got me on board way back in the

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1970s praise the Lord I want you to ask

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you about you mentioned that evolution

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of skeptics skeptical thought in yeah

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but it's quite obvious from what you're

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telling that you had been a skeptic

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before you knew there was a skeptical

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movement because you care for you became

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involved with the skeptic chantment yes

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you may be described how that happened

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how when you found out that you had

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skeptical inclinations when you were

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able to actually define it to yourself

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okay we'll have to go back very much

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earlier my family even though on the

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fourth generation Australian my family's

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heritage cultural heritage is Irish

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Catholic which meant that i went to the

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catholic school where you hear all the

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really neat stories i thoroughly enjoyed

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doing most of the stuff the First Holy

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Communion and all that sort of stuff was

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great fun confession really bothered me

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but that's for different reasons

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and I suppose it was finally when I was

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in grade five because we're we're

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looking at pre Vatican to hear so this

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is around about nineteen sixty when

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there was still the Latin Mass where

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pope pius the 12th was still the Pope

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where the power and control was still

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very much there where you were

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continually being told that you know you

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are so lucky that you have the one true

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faith and we used to have this pair at

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the end of mass called the prayer for

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the conversion of Russia which I used to

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hear every sat sunday morning and I

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started to wonder I wonder if the

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children sitting in the classrooms in

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Moscow the godless atheists whether they

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have something equivalent to say that

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they don't believe in things like this

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and then from there going on further

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because I've always loved history and

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stories from history you learn a lot

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about the human condition through

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studying history and reading stories and

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you discover at the end of the day that

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human nature hasn't really changed very

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much over time I started to think well

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you know all these religions thought

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they were rush and what makes this one

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00:12:44,329 --> 00:12:41,550
special and from there basically the

275
00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:44,339
only reason I can see is you that you

276
00:12:48,230 --> 00:12:46,410
can come to is that you have to take I

277
00:12:50,929 --> 00:12:48,240
can't remember that was whether it was a

278
00:12:54,139 --> 00:12:50,939
Gustin or Aquinas said a leap of faith

279
00:12:56,540 --> 00:12:54,149
you have to want to believe in us and

280
00:12:58,970 --> 00:12:56,550
then your back would map to say here's

281
00:13:01,850 --> 00:12:58,980
the evidence and that was the step that

282
00:13:04,850 --> 00:13:01,860
I fell down on I am afraid that I

283
00:13:07,369 --> 00:13:04,860
couldn't accept that that I couldn't see

284
00:13:10,850 --> 00:13:07,379
that there was any evidence to accept

285
00:13:13,970 --> 00:13:10,860
the fact that this particular story was

286
00:13:16,129 --> 00:13:13,980
any truer in a literal sense that had

287
00:13:20,900 --> 00:13:16,139
the evidence with it than any other

288
00:13:24,530 --> 00:13:20,910
story but being ten years old and a girl

289
00:13:27,410 --> 00:13:24,540
in that kind of environment you didn't

290
00:13:29,990 --> 00:13:27,420
you learnt not necessarily to speak your

291
00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:30,000
mind or if you did speak your mind you

292
00:13:34,340 --> 00:13:31,410
ended up expecting

293
00:13:38,509 --> 00:13:34,350
would dance because i did get very very

294
00:13:41,930 --> 00:13:38,519
heavily put John by various people i

295
00:13:45,050 --> 00:13:41,940
must say that i'm extremely fond of most

296
00:13:47,300 --> 00:13:45,060
of the nuns who taught me because a lot

297
00:13:50,210 --> 00:13:47,310
of them were very very good human beings

298
00:13:53,869 --> 00:13:50,220
and I'm very very fond of both my

299
00:13:56,990 --> 00:13:53,879
parents so you have this mismatch where

300
00:13:59,389 --> 00:13:57,000
you don't know what what I believe is it

301
00:14:01,910 --> 00:13:59,399
odds with what these people whom I love

302
00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:01,920
respect admire and who were good people

303
00:14:07,069 --> 00:14:05,250
are telling me so you tend particularly

304
00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:07,079
when you're at that age and you don't

305
00:14:11,990 --> 00:14:09,410
necessarily have the confidence to

306
00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:12,000
advocate for what you believe in you

307
00:14:16,699 --> 00:14:14,610
tend to sort of just leave it in the

308
00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:16,709
background and you learn not to talk

309
00:14:20,990 --> 00:14:19,290
about it so I suppose that's what I

310
00:14:24,110 --> 00:14:21,000
ended up doing through the rest of my

311
00:14:27,350 --> 00:14:24,120
school career and also to a great degree

312
00:14:30,889 --> 00:14:27,360
at University when I finally decided I

313
00:14:33,290 --> 00:14:30,899
suppose around about the age of 19 that

314
00:14:35,929 --> 00:14:33,300
no I really don't think this very much

315
00:14:39,050 --> 00:14:35,939
in this for me anymore I'm having a very

316
00:14:42,370 --> 00:14:39,060
hard time accepting what's being told to

317
00:14:45,199 --> 00:14:42,380
me and I just basically walked away

318
00:14:48,410 --> 00:14:45,209
didn't really walk to anything I must

319
00:14:50,629 --> 00:14:48,420
admit and that was why I suppose when

320
00:14:53,660 --> 00:14:50,639
when I did finally start doing some

321
00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:53,670
reading so that was the genesis of

322
00:14:58,970 --> 00:14:56,370
Margaret sort of heading down that

323
00:15:01,249 --> 00:14:58,980
direction right it's a case of not

324
00:15:02,870 --> 00:15:01,259
knowing what you want rather knowing

325
00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:02,880
what you are so you started with the

326
00:15:08,990 --> 00:15:05,370
Genesis then you have the revelation yes

327
00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:09,000
okay okay so i won't say anything about

328
00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:11,370
that I well I mean a metaphor as a

329
00:15:15,110 --> 00:15:13,290
metaphor and sometimes it's just a

330
00:15:18,019 --> 00:15:15,120
metaphor absolutely I have no problem

331
00:15:19,999 --> 00:15:18,029
with that I say Oh God and yes up like

332
00:15:22,009 --> 00:15:20,009
that all the time yeah now you're a

333
00:15:24,679 --> 00:15:22,019
teacher in the library and Eng still

334
00:15:27,980 --> 00:15:24,689
teach i am still teaching I've had a

335
00:15:30,170 --> 00:15:27,990
career change about seven years ago I

336
00:15:31,850 --> 00:15:30,180
spent a lot of bike teaching career

337
00:15:34,970 --> 00:15:31,860
teaching English and history in high

338
00:15:37,819 --> 00:15:34,980
schools which I absolutely adored I love

339
00:15:39,710 --> 00:15:37,829
teaching I would still really enjoyed it

340
00:15:43,460 --> 00:15:39,720
night I really enjoyed teaching

341
00:15:45,319 --> 00:15:43,470
teenagers to what's chased me and so

342
00:15:48,169 --> 00:15:45,329
many of my other colleagues out of the

343
00:15:50,809 --> 00:15:48,179
through the increasing layers of

344
00:15:54,489 --> 00:15:50,819
accountability and the paperwork that we

345
00:15:57,650 --> 00:15:54,499
get thrust upon us from outside and

346
00:16:00,319 --> 00:15:57,660
which takes us away from doing what is

347
00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:00,329
essentially our core business I have no

348
00:16:05,090 --> 00:16:01,970
problem with the issue of accountability

349
00:16:07,879 --> 00:16:05,100
that's fair enough but the how many

350
00:16:10,609 --> 00:16:07,889
times can you count something that's the

351
00:16:12,859 --> 00:16:10,619
thing that struck drive me nuts my last

352
00:16:16,460 --> 00:16:12,869
year teaching I had a 10 11 and 12

353
00:16:20,329 --> 00:16:16,470
english class and 11 and 12 h in history

354
00:16:22,939 --> 00:16:20,339
and i was pulling on occasion

355
00:16:25,189 --> 00:16:22,949
particularly at the end of term when you

356
00:16:28,129 --> 00:16:25,199
had to get marking done and generate

357
00:16:30,769 --> 00:16:28,139
reports and things like that it wasn't

358
00:16:35,629 --> 00:16:30,779
unusual for me to work a 70 or natl a

359
00:16:38,929 --> 00:16:35,639
week and at the end end of it i just ran

360
00:16:41,949 --> 00:16:38,939
out of energy teaching does to do it

361
00:16:45,289 --> 00:16:41,959
well you've got to care about it and

362
00:16:47,299 --> 00:16:45,299
that draws on emotional reserves where

363
00:16:49,909 --> 00:16:47,309
you are actually up in front of a class

364
00:16:52,429 --> 00:16:49,919
performing or engaging with kids and

365
00:16:55,609 --> 00:16:52,439
helping them learn that takes a lot out

366
00:16:58,759 --> 00:16:55,619
of you and at the end of it I was at

367
00:17:01,369 --> 00:16:58,769
very very pleased because as I said I'd

368
00:17:03,590 --> 00:17:01,379
always love stories and books that I was

369
00:17:05,809 --> 00:17:03,600
able to get some teacher librarian

370
00:17:08,539 --> 00:17:05,819
qualification and then some library

371
00:17:11,120 --> 00:17:08,549
science qualification going to teach

372
00:17:14,090 --> 00:17:11,130
librarianship and then get very very

373
00:17:16,789 --> 00:17:14,100
lucky and become a teacher librarian in

374
00:17:18,379 --> 00:17:16,799
a primary school that means that i run a

375
00:17:21,409 --> 00:17:18,389
primary school library and one at

376
00:17:24,169 --> 00:17:21,419
brisbane is leafy suburb I've got 740

377
00:17:27,319 --> 00:17:24,179
lovely children who come borrow books

378
00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:27,329
and read I've got a great staff and I

379
00:17:32,539 --> 00:17:29,610
really enjoy my life as it is at the

380
00:17:34,490 --> 00:17:32,549
moment I could not be a primary

381
00:17:37,430 --> 00:17:34,500
classroom teacher I look at my

382
00:17:39,230 --> 00:17:37,440
colleagues in stunned admiration

383
00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:39,240
particularly the ones with the early

384
00:17:44,899 --> 00:17:42,330
years people because I really do not

385
00:17:46,070 --> 00:17:44,909
know how they do what they do they often

386
00:17:48,830 --> 00:17:46,080
look at me and so don't know how you

387
00:17:50,330 --> 00:17:48,840
ever taught high school but I really

388
00:17:53,029 --> 00:17:50,340
love what I'm doing because I'm

389
00:17:55,129 --> 00:17:53,039
passionate about stories I'm passionate

390
00:17:58,279 --> 00:17:55,139
about sharing stories with children and

391
00:17:59,039 --> 00:17:58,289
the importance of stories just fire up

392
00:18:02,009 --> 00:17:59,049
kids

393
00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:02,019
imaginations the one thing we have this

394
00:18:06,479 --> 00:18:03,730
thing in queensland clerk called the

395
00:18:08,850 --> 00:18:06,489
queensland score core skills test which

396
00:18:12,989 --> 00:18:08,860
has done about halfway through year 12

397
00:18:15,810 --> 00:18:12,999
our final high school year and the best

398
00:18:17,999 --> 00:18:15,820
indicator that they've been able to find

399
00:18:20,879 --> 00:18:18,009
for children who do well I shouldn't say

400
00:18:23,399 --> 00:18:20,889
children at that stage for people to do

401
00:18:25,499 --> 00:18:23,409
well in that is wider reading that's it

402
00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:25,509
that's the the key thing that they've

403
00:18:29,820 --> 00:18:27,730
been able to correlate with successful

404
00:18:32,129 --> 00:18:29,830
outcomes that the kids that get the

405
00:18:34,529 --> 00:18:32,139
really good scores that then go on to

406
00:18:37,590 --> 00:18:34,539
university the one thing they all have

407
00:18:40,799 --> 00:18:37,600
in common is wider reading or a lot of

408
00:18:42,180 --> 00:18:40,809
them have in common so that's one thing

409
00:18:43,859 --> 00:18:42,190
that I'm really excited about

410
00:18:46,470 --> 00:18:43,869
particularly with the building the

411
00:18:49,649 --> 00:18:46,480
education revolution money the money

412
00:18:51,269 --> 00:18:49,659
going into schools for libraries and

413
00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:51,279
things like that because I think that's

414
00:18:57,090 --> 00:18:54,730
really really a key plank in education

415
00:18:59,220 --> 00:18:57,100
do you ever take your skepticism to

416
00:19:01,430 --> 00:18:59,230
class do you ever teach skepticism or

417
00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:01,440
teach critical thinking or somehow

418
00:19:06,239 --> 00:19:04,090
convey the message of skepticism at

419
00:19:09,599 --> 00:19:06,249
regal thinking to children yes you do

420
00:19:11,220 --> 00:19:09,609
because you do get to two children to

421
00:19:14,970 --> 00:19:11,230
seek the evidence that that's really

422
00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:14,980
really important and and you can do it

423
00:19:19,349 --> 00:19:16,690
to a degree in literature I mean the

424
00:19:21,690 --> 00:19:19,359
certain tools of skepticism that you can

425
00:19:25,799 --> 00:19:21,700
because skepticism is essentially a

426
00:19:28,830 --> 00:19:25,809
process it's not a bully a belief

427
00:19:31,649 --> 00:19:28,840
position so to speak I think that's one

428
00:19:33,419 --> 00:19:31,659
reason I like it because it is a process

429
00:19:35,489 --> 00:19:33,429
it's a way of looking at the world like

430
00:19:38,489 --> 00:19:35,499
science and scientific methods of

431
00:19:41,999 --> 00:19:38,499
process it's not a belief position in

432
00:19:43,889 --> 00:19:42,009
the same way as being you know even a up

433
00:19:46,799 --> 00:19:43,899
your broncos supporter or a lion

434
00:19:50,549 --> 00:19:46,809
supporter or whatever sporting limits

435
00:19:54,899 --> 00:19:50,559
it's not or even preferring one

436
00:19:56,609 --> 00:19:54,909
political party over another and that's

437
00:19:58,859 --> 00:19:56,619
one thing that the principles of

438
00:20:01,080 --> 00:19:58,869
skepticism are ones that you incorporate

439
00:20:04,019 --> 00:20:01,090
India teaching all the time all the good

440
00:20:06,060 --> 00:20:04,029
teachers do the importance within your

441
00:20:08,099 --> 00:20:06,070
subjects of seeking the evidence what's

442
00:20:11,249 --> 00:20:08,109
evidence in this particular discipline

443
00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:11,259
you make a hypothesis how do you find

444
00:20:15,730 --> 00:20:12,410
evidence

445
00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:15,740
a call think things which I so they

446
00:20:21,130 --> 00:20:17,330
aren't so what's the problem with this

447
00:20:23,110 --> 00:20:21,140
one is that based on a false premise can

448
00:20:25,770 --> 00:20:23,120
you believe what this purse is speaking

449
00:20:28,330 --> 00:20:25,780
let's track track stuff to its source

450
00:20:30,580 --> 00:20:28,340
that's one thing that I really wish

451
00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:30,590
would get profiled alura's history

452
00:20:36,220 --> 00:20:33,410
because there's a lot of skeptical steps

453
00:20:38,730 --> 00:20:36,230
in history that I think people on the

454
00:20:41,500 --> 00:20:38,740
side side tend to rather despised

455
00:20:44,170 --> 00:20:41,510
humanities people and say you know

456
00:20:49,870 --> 00:20:44,180
you're not you don't think critically

457
00:20:53,470 --> 00:20:49,880
and I do I'm just trying to think of a

458
00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:53,480
good example okay there is a wonderful

459
00:20:59,530 --> 00:20:56,410
urban legends webpage called snopes com

460
00:21:02,110 --> 00:20:59,540
which I have occasionally shown to

461
00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:02,120
students particularly if they come down

462
00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:05,090
with an urban legend and really like but

463
00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:07,010
so we go and learn and we have a look at

464
00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:09,970
it and say okay what's the urban legend

465
00:21:15,220 --> 00:21:12,770
there was one that I went through was

466
00:21:17,410 --> 00:21:15,230
some year seven kids a few years ago it

467
00:21:20,170 --> 00:21:17,420
was one about Michael Jackson hanging

468
00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:20,180
the kid out the window and let's go

469
00:21:24,790 --> 00:21:22,730
somewhere what's a reliable source will

470
00:21:27,310 --> 00:21:24,800
go to Snipes we'll have a look at it and

471
00:21:29,830 --> 00:21:27,320
this is because it deals with urban

472
00:21:31,930 --> 00:21:29,840
legends and the reason snakes is good is

473
00:21:35,290 --> 00:21:31,940
that it does take you back to the

474
00:21:38,260 --> 00:21:35,300
sources it evaluates the site is true or

475
00:21:42,100 --> 00:21:38,270
false or unproven and then at the end

476
00:21:45,670 --> 00:21:42,110
it's got a whole heap of references to

477
00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:45,680
show where things come from so in my

478
00:21:51,450 --> 00:21:48,770
position because resourcing the

479
00:21:53,950 --> 00:21:51,460
curriculums a key element of what I do

480
00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:53,960
apart from promoting through is it's the

481
00:22:01,240 --> 00:21:56,770
other key Achille key element to my role

482
00:22:02,650 --> 00:22:01,250
yes to making making sure that what's in

483
00:22:06,220 --> 00:22:02,660
the collection is relevant and

484
00:22:09,460 --> 00:22:06,230
up-to-date so yes it's as I said it's a

485
00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:09,470
process it sits behind ear the whole

486
00:22:13,990 --> 00:22:11,810
time and and manifests occasionally

487
00:22:19,750 --> 00:22:14,000
rather than being something that you

488
00:22:22,330 --> 00:22:19,760
teach as a formal subject I mean it's as

489
00:22:24,950 --> 00:22:22,340
I said it's a process so it's I do use

490
00:22:27,889 --> 00:22:24,960
the tools of skepticism a lot

491
00:22:31,460 --> 00:22:27,899
in what I do in my engagements with my

492
00:22:35,269 --> 00:22:31,470
colleagues and also with the children

493
00:22:37,430 --> 00:22:35,279
the bill even a hedge pizza I think

494
00:22:39,019 --> 00:22:37,440
we're skeptics generally are aware that

495
00:22:42,649 --> 00:22:39,029
critical thinking of skepticism are not

496
00:22:46,820 --> 00:22:42,659
about science or not any specific topic

497
00:22:49,700 --> 00:22:46,830
and it is something that pervades that

498
00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:49,710
is pervasive and permeates all of all of

499
00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:54,330
life there is one thing where I did butt

500
00:22:58,700 --> 00:22:56,850
heads with my school administration him

501
00:23:02,480 --> 00:22:58,710
i normally get on very well with i must

502
00:23:06,649 --> 00:23:02,490
add that we ended up with some awful

503
00:23:08,750 --> 00:23:06,659
rubbish pd a couple of years ago that

504
00:23:12,710 --> 00:23:08,760
suddenly emerged on our professional

505
00:23:14,690 --> 00:23:12,720
development calendar a dodgy prodigy for

506
00:23:18,350 --> 00:23:14,700
those were not teachers professional

507
00:23:21,190 --> 00:23:18,360
development pd professional development

508
00:23:25,700 --> 00:23:21,200
calendar a few years ago in February

509
00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:25,710
2006 i sat at the certain staff room

510
00:23:32,419 --> 00:23:29,090
with my colleagues listening to speakers

511
00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:32,429
talk about some flim flam by the name of

512
00:23:39,279 --> 00:23:36,450
brain gym and the most appalling

513
00:23:41,990 --> 00:23:39,289
nonsense was being peddled house and

514
00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:42,000
everybody just SAT there and cop dish

515
00:23:51,260 --> 00:23:47,730
and I made a huge mistake I challenge

516
00:23:55,039 --> 00:23:51,270
the speaker was rather rude got spoken

517
00:23:56,990 --> 00:23:55,049
to the next day by my principal he had

518
00:23:59,870 --> 00:23:57,000
the right to do because I had been rude

519
00:24:01,430 --> 00:23:59,880
but I refused to result in the position

520
00:24:04,310 --> 00:24:01,440
that what we were listening to was

521
00:24:07,669 --> 00:24:04,320
absolute rubbish and that we shouldn't

522
00:24:10,940 --> 00:24:07,679
have been forced to to listen to it I

523
00:24:13,639 --> 00:24:10,950
think the problem was that from the

524
00:24:16,279 --> 00:24:13,649
point of view of teachers as classroom

525
00:24:18,380 --> 00:24:16,289
practitioners they were just interested

526
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:18,390
in finding some clues that would help

527
00:24:23,330 --> 00:24:20,490
them teach but and they didn't really

528
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:23,340
care two hoots about what was behind it

529
00:24:27,470 --> 00:24:26,010
that brain 'jim is some fun exercises

530
00:24:28,909 --> 00:24:27,480
that you can do with your kids while

531
00:24:32,090 --> 00:24:28,919
they're basically sitting in their

532
00:24:34,460 --> 00:24:32,100
chairs or standing in their place so any

533
00:24:37,490 --> 00:24:34,470
activity that you can use to engage kids

534
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:37,500
is great that's fine what I had the

535
00:24:42,060 --> 00:24:38,650
problem with was

536
00:24:44,250 --> 00:24:42,070
pseudoscience that was behind it and I

537
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:44,260
very much doubt whether the rest of my

538
00:24:49,860 --> 00:24:47,290
colleagues good primary school nobody

539
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:49,870
that a really science specialist says

540
00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:52,450
sadly and then that is an issue a

541
00:24:58,170 --> 00:24:55,450
different issue probably weren't even

542
00:25:00,420 --> 00:24:58,180
paying any attention to the rest of the

543
00:25:03,210 --> 00:25:00,430
nonsense that this presenter was going

544
00:25:07,350 --> 00:25:03,220
out with it was also an extremely hot

545
00:25:08,940 --> 00:25:07,360
day in February it was after school we

546
00:25:12,260 --> 00:25:08,950
were probably sitting in a room with

547
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:12,270
about that was at about 35 degrees and

548
00:25:19,410 --> 00:25:16,330
no air conditioning and very very humid

549
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:19,420
so the rest of it we will probably would

550
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:22,530
just practicing selective listening but

551
00:25:27,450 --> 00:25:25,090
that was one that I have kept plugging

552
00:25:29,700 --> 00:25:27,460
away at and I hope that I've won some

553
00:25:32,070 --> 00:25:29,710
people in the middle there are obviously

554
00:25:34,170 --> 00:25:32,080
the true believers that accept all of

555
00:25:36,110 --> 00:25:34,180
the augment nonsense that gets paddled

556
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:36,120
out and toddle off to their

557
00:25:42,120 --> 00:25:39,610
chiropractors and their naturopaths but

558
00:25:44,730 --> 00:25:42,130
hopefully the ones in the middle I hope

559
00:25:46,590 --> 00:25:44,740
I did get through to i dunno i got

560
00:25:51,360 --> 00:25:46,600
through to a couple of people because i

561
00:25:53,430 --> 00:25:51,370
got feedback afterwards about it so that

562
00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:53,440
was one example of where i actually did

563
00:26:00,930 --> 00:25:56,290
get very missionary as far as skepticism

564
00:26:02,820 --> 00:26:00,940
is concerned with mixed results I would

565
00:26:04,650 --> 00:26:02,830
use different tactics and future other

566
00:26:06,930 --> 00:26:04,660
than the ones that are used at that time

567
00:26:09,300 --> 00:26:06,940
and that's what you should all do we

568
00:26:11,850 --> 00:26:09,310
should all do we make a mistake we learn

569
00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:11,860
from it we take it on one and think well

570
00:26:16,380 --> 00:26:14,290
I won't go there next time I'll try to

571
00:26:18,270 --> 00:26:16,390
get the same outcome but that

572
00:26:20,610 --> 00:26:18,280
methodology didn't work let's try

573
00:26:22,860 --> 00:26:20,620
something different this time around and

574
00:26:24,420 --> 00:26:22,870
keep on doing it if I'm a comment

575
00:26:26,940 --> 00:26:24,430
specifically about that thing about

576
00:26:29,070 --> 00:26:26,950
being rude or how you how we approach

577
00:26:32,190 --> 00:26:29,080
people who peddle all kinds of nonsense

578
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:32,200
I found that obviously being polite and

579
00:26:38,430 --> 00:26:35,890
being friendly always helps it makes you

580
00:26:40,380 --> 00:26:38,440
look more more approachable makes your

581
00:26:42,300 --> 00:26:40,390
the position that you're pushing more

582
00:26:44,940 --> 00:26:42,310
available yeah the problem is that

583
00:26:48,090 --> 00:26:44,950
sometimes it's very very difficult it's

584
00:26:49,740 --> 00:26:48,100
to be polite it is so I completely

585
00:26:50,310 --> 00:26:49,750
understand where you're coming from but

586
00:26:52,139 --> 00:26:50,320
as you

587
00:26:54,749 --> 00:26:52,149
said you make mistakes in you learn from

588
00:26:56,970 --> 00:26:54,759
them now I'd like to move to move again

589
00:26:58,769 --> 00:26:56,980
back to speaking about the skeptics and

590
00:27:00,570 --> 00:26:58,779
you're currently the secretary of the

591
00:27:03,029 --> 00:27:00,580
Queensland skeptics is that correct yes

592
00:27:04,470 --> 00:27:03,039
that's correct and you also have another

593
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:04,480
role would you like to speak about that

594
00:27:09,810 --> 00:27:06,850
as well ok the other role is the

595
00:27:12,509 --> 00:27:09,820
convener for Bruce skepticon is that the

596
00:27:14,310 --> 00:27:12,519
one that you mean Iran okay Bruce

597
00:27:17,399 --> 00:27:14,320
skepticon is the nickname that I've

598
00:27:20,159 --> 00:27:17,409
given to this year's Australian skeptics

599
00:27:22,980 --> 00:27:20,169
National Convention which is being held

600
00:27:26,009 --> 00:27:22,990
at in beautiful Brisbane in the last

601
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:26,019
weekend of november this year that's the

602
00:27:32,580 --> 00:27:30,129
27th 28th and 29th of November after

603
00:27:36,149 --> 00:27:32,590
having been at convention junkie

604
00:27:38,580 --> 00:27:36,159
basically since 2000 I thought that it

605
00:27:41,279 --> 00:27:38,590
was about time the two things happened

606
00:27:43,740 --> 00:27:41,289
number one that a convention come back

607
00:27:47,580 --> 00:27:43,750
to Brisbane because there hasn't been a

608
00:27:54,180 --> 00:27:47,590
national convention held here since 2001

609
00:27:57,659 --> 00:27:54,190
and also that I'd like to use all of the

610
00:28:00,749 --> 00:27:57,669
experience that I've gained in attending

611
00:28:05,009 --> 00:28:00,759
all these other conventions to have a go

612
00:28:07,230 --> 00:28:05,019
at running it to organizing it so last

613
00:28:11,180 --> 00:28:07,240
year I decided to put up my hand and

614
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:11,190
volunteer my services to do so and

615
00:28:17,999 --> 00:28:13,450
basically since then I've had a lot of

616
00:28:20,279 --> 00:28:18,009
fun I'm getting it all organized and I'm

617
00:28:21,299 --> 00:28:20,289
pleased to say that things look as

618
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:21,309
though they're coming together really

619
00:28:28,049 --> 00:28:25,690
really well fee I've had some fantastic

620
00:28:31,379 --> 00:28:28,059
help with some wonderful people in

621
00:28:34,379 --> 00:28:31,389
Brisbane who Peter relish in particular

622
00:28:37,110 --> 00:28:34,389
I'd like to mention he was last year's

623
00:28:39,119 --> 00:28:37,120
Australian skeptics winner of the

624
00:28:42,419 --> 00:28:39,129
Australian skeptics prize for critical

625
00:28:46,259 --> 00:28:42,429
thinking last year and he has set us up

626
00:28:50,430 --> 00:28:46,269
a Queensland skeptics website at just

627
00:28:53,279 --> 00:28:50,440
qld skeptics calm where amongst other

628
00:28:55,470 --> 00:28:53,289
things all the program information and

629
00:28:57,810 --> 00:28:55,480
other information about the convention

630
00:29:00,899 --> 00:28:57,820
is loaded including information about

631
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:00,909
our guest speakers we've been very very

632
00:29:05,010 --> 00:29:02,530
lucky to attract

633
00:29:07,730 --> 00:29:05,020
a couple of really high-profile guest

634
00:29:10,770 --> 00:29:07,740
speakers it's a bit of a combo of

635
00:29:13,020 --> 00:29:10,780
Margaret's vision some people that I

636
00:29:17,070 --> 00:29:13,030
really think that I'd like the rest of

637
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:17,080
my skeptical colleagues to listen to and

638
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:21,850
also some old favorites and some

639
00:29:29,730 --> 00:29:25,810
Brisbane locals so a real combination

640
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:29,740
but I suppose two key themes scientist

641
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:32,410
science is important the skeptics we

642
00:29:37,380 --> 00:29:34,450
have a commitment to critical thinking

643
00:29:41,100 --> 00:29:37,390
and the scientific method so I'm wanting

644
00:29:44,510 --> 00:29:41,110
to focus on science and the Saturday

645
00:29:47,970 --> 00:29:44,520
program is looking into science-based

646
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:47,980
things and the sunday program the focus

647
00:29:54,210 --> 00:29:51,730
is changing just a bit too to use the

648
00:29:57,420 --> 00:29:54,220
phrase I think first coined by michael

649
00:30:00,870 --> 00:29:57,430
shermer why people believe things weird

650
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:00,880
things the focus is going more onto the

651
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:03,370
nature of belief and why people accept

652
00:30:10,050 --> 00:30:07,930
things which just ain't so the theme of

653
00:30:14,130 --> 00:30:10,060
the convention is myth and misconception

654
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:14,140
because all evidence is not equal we've

655
00:30:19,650 --> 00:30:16,810
got dr. Carl grizzle Nikki kicking the

656
00:30:23,010 --> 00:30:19,660
show off on the Monday morning we're

657
00:30:26,340 --> 00:30:23,020
very lucky to get Carl services and he's

658
00:30:29,610 --> 00:30:26,350
keeping with that theme talking about a

659
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:29,620
whole heap of misconceptions and on

660
00:30:34,620 --> 00:30:32,770
Sunday the other person that I've got

661
00:30:36,750 --> 00:30:34,630
that I've gone out and chased that I

662
00:30:39,300 --> 00:30:36,760
really wanted people to hear his

663
00:30:43,620 --> 00:30:39,310
associate associate professor Tony

664
00:30:45,990 --> 00:30:43,630
Taylor from Monash University I was in

665
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:46,000
Melbourne in February and I picked up a

666
00:30:52,260 --> 00:30:47,890
book after I read a review and the age

667
00:30:53,940 --> 00:30:52,270
called history betrayed and I was so

668
00:30:55,710 --> 00:30:53,950
impressed with a review that I went out

669
00:30:59,370 --> 00:30:55,720
and bought a copy straight away and

670
00:31:02,400 --> 00:30:59,380
thought wow I want everybody to be aware

671
00:31:05,670 --> 00:31:02,410
of what this what this gentleman's

672
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:05,680
talking about and his title of his talk

673
00:31:09,030 --> 00:31:07,810
was the art and craft of pseudo his

674
00:31:11,970 --> 00:31:09,040
strength

675
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:11,980
denial history betrayed is actually a

676
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:14,410
study of the ideology and the psychology

677
00:31:20,100 --> 00:31:17,610
of historical denial in modern history

678
00:31:22,290 --> 00:31:20,110
that he really wanted to get into the

679
00:31:26,690 --> 00:31:22,300
pathology of that and what lies behind

680
00:31:29,100 --> 00:31:26,700
it and why people and it can be a

681
00:31:31,110 --> 00:31:29,110
concussion why can't we get our heads

682
00:31:33,780 --> 00:31:31,120
around the fact that these things

683
00:31:36,390 --> 00:31:33,790
happened so I'm really looking forward

684
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:36,400
to the opportunity for people to listen

685
00:31:41,940 --> 00:31:39,130
to tony and he's been really really

686
00:31:44,490 --> 00:31:41,950
helpful i'm really looking forward to

687
00:31:46,950 --> 00:31:44,500
meeting up with the gentleman and we've

688
00:31:48,930 --> 00:31:46,960
got some other wonderful locals we've

689
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:48,940
got Loretta Marin the jelly bean lady

690
00:31:54,420 --> 00:31:52,090
who featured on a Current Affair earlier

691
00:31:59,000 --> 00:31:54,430
this year exposing a cancer quack up and

692
00:32:02,700 --> 00:31:59,010
makai we've got other people who have

693
00:32:07,110 --> 00:32:02,710
experience with I suppose the effects of

694
00:32:09,660 --> 00:32:07,120
what happens when people believe aunt

695
00:32:14,700 --> 00:32:09,670
met nonsense we've got some old

696
00:32:16,980 --> 00:32:14,710
tried-and-true ones as well so that's a

697
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:16,990
quick snapshot of what's in the program

698
00:32:24,090 --> 00:32:21,250
and Jan I am really looking forward to

699
00:32:28,290 --> 00:32:24,100
it and catching up with everyone my

700
00:32:29,730 --> 00:32:28,300
great job to end this wonderful chat so

701
00:32:31,170 --> 00:32:29,740
can you please tell us again where it

702
00:32:34,710 --> 00:32:31,180
more information can be found about the

703
00:32:39,390 --> 00:32:34,720
convention okay the Australian skeptics

704
00:32:42,420 --> 00:32:39,400
website has got a link on the right hand

705
00:32:44,430 --> 00:32:42,430
side of its homepage or you can go

706
00:32:50,340 --> 00:32:44,440
straight to the Queensland skeptics

707
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:50,350
website which is www and skeptics com

708
00:32:53,670 --> 00:32:51,970
it's been wonderful talking to you about

709
00:33:07,220 --> 00:32:53,680
it thank you very much for being on the

710
00:33:11,850 --> 00:33:09,360
examining the truth in exposing the

711
00:33:13,710 --> 00:33:11,860
frauds but psychics co uk is the website

712
00:33:15,810 --> 00:33:13,720
that critically examines mediums

713
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:15,820
clairvoyants and psychics follow the

714
00:33:19,710 --> 00:33:17,650
controversies news and discussions in

715
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:19,720
the lively forum community and now you

716
00:33:22,919 --> 00:33:21,250
can download your weekly fix of

717
00:33:25,289 --> 00:33:22,929
righteous indignation the official

718
00:33:26,549 --> 00:33:25,299
podcast of bad psychics khodet UK that

719
00:33:29,669 --> 00:33:26,559
talks hard and critically about

720
00:33:31,039 --> 00:33:29,679
paranormal bad psychics khodet UK the

721
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:31,049
UK's largest and most respected

722
00:33:41,070 --> 00:33:39,370
skeptical site looking at psychics this

723
00:33:43,740 --> 00:33:41,080
is brian dunning from the sceptile

724
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:43,750
podcast been enjoying your critical

725
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:48,130
thinking shows in audio only you've been

726
00:33:55,590 --> 00:33:50,770
missing half the fun check out my new

727
00:34:00,630 --> 00:33:55,600
video podcast in fact on itunes or click

728
00:34:02,789 --> 00:34:00,640
it on Sceptile com3 pilot episodes of in

729
00:34:05,130 --> 00:34:02,799
fact are available now for immediate

730
00:34:07,590 --> 00:34:05,140
viewing I'm looking for sponsorship to

731
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:07,600
produce an entire first season of 13

732
00:34:12,659 --> 00:34:10,450
episodes and hopefully many more seasons

733
00:34:14,790 --> 00:34:12,669
to follow you can see the whole lineup

734
00:34:17,909 --> 00:34:14,800
and get all the other nuts and bolts if

735
00:34:21,180 --> 00:34:17,919
you go to sceptile calm and click on in

736
00:34:22,980 --> 00:34:21,190
fact and don't forget to come back to

737
00:34:27,020 --> 00:34:22,990
the skeptic zone when you're done

738
00:34:29,820 --> 00:34:27,030
watching I I think it's audio only but

739
00:34:40,050 --> 00:34:29,830
that's okay I still like it this is

740
00:34:42,869 --> 00:34:40,060
brian dunning from sceptile calm this

741
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:42,879
will take this with a grain of salt is

742
00:34:52,940 --> 00:34:50,720
one of the least talked about aspects of

743
00:34:55,550 --> 00:34:52,950
medical science is its heavy reliance on

744
00:34:57,680 --> 00:34:55,560
statistics it is known to doctors and

745
00:34:59,300 --> 00:34:57,690
scientists in the field of course and I

746
00:35:02,330 --> 00:34:59,310
suspect many people have some vague

747
00:35:03,890 --> 00:35:02,340
notion that statistics is being used but

748
00:35:06,130 --> 00:35:03,900
very few people understand what it

749
00:35:08,720 --> 00:35:06,140
really means and how it may affect them

750
00:35:11,030 --> 00:35:08,730
the urge to talk about this topic right

751
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:11,040
now is mostly due to our recent campaign

752
00:35:15,230 --> 00:35:13,410
against the avian in mayoral dories

753
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:15,240
fully statement that we should not treat

754
00:35:19,550 --> 00:35:17,010
kids with an intervention that is not

755
00:35:21,290 --> 00:35:19,560
one hundred percent safe but the

756
00:35:23,720 --> 00:35:21,300
expectation that medicine should be as

757
00:35:26,870 --> 00:35:23,730
safe as that has been troubling me for a

758
00:35:29,810 --> 00:35:26,880
while people clearly don't realize just

759
00:35:31,130 --> 00:35:29,820
a foolish that expectation is it's not

760
00:35:32,510 --> 00:35:31,140
that people shouldn't expect a high

761
00:35:35,240 --> 00:35:32,520
level of safety in their medical

762
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:35,250
treatment they absolutely should and for

763
00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:36,450
a treatment to be approved for general

764
00:35:41,060 --> 00:35:39,090
use it must pass stringent tests done

765
00:35:42,950 --> 00:35:41,070
only for efficacy but also for safety

766
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:42,960
but safety is also relative to the

767
00:35:48,710 --> 00:35:46,290
effect for example chemotherapy drugs

768
00:35:51,170 --> 00:35:48,720
are extremely toxic many of them are

769
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:51,180
even carcinogenic in their own right yet

770
00:35:54,430 --> 00:35:52,650
cancer patients get them because

771
00:35:56,720 --> 00:35:54,440
unbalanced they do more good than harm

772
00:35:57,920 --> 00:35:56,730
you could refuse to take chemo on the

773
00:36:00,490 --> 00:35:57,930
grounds that it's not one hundred

774
00:36:03,710 --> 00:36:00,500
percent safe but then you die of cancer

775
00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:03,720
even benign drugs like paracetamol can

776
00:36:08,720 --> 00:36:06,210
and do have side effects but unbalanced

777
00:36:10,460 --> 00:36:08,730
they're worth using so it's always about

778
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:10,470
weighing up the pros and cons and

779
00:36:14,930 --> 00:36:13,170
associated probabilities expecting one

780
00:36:17,530 --> 00:36:14,940
hundred percent safety or one hundred

781
00:36:19,700 --> 00:36:17,540
percent efficacy is foolish

782
00:36:22,310 --> 00:36:19,710
unfortunately it's not only foolish it

783
00:36:24,890 --> 00:36:22,320
is also harmful and it's harmful for two

784
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:24,900
main reasons one is that people refrain

785
00:36:29,390 --> 00:36:27,210
from using certain treatments the best

786
00:36:30,980 --> 00:36:29,400
known example is exceeds which have

787
00:36:33,230 --> 00:36:30,990
extraordinary safety and efficacy

788
00:36:35,180 --> 00:36:33,240
records yet some people choose not to

789
00:36:36,770 --> 00:36:35,190
vaccinate their children because they

790
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:36,780
are not one hundred percent safe or

791
00:36:41,630 --> 00:36:39,210
whatever other lies the avn tells them

792
00:36:43,580 --> 00:36:41,640
about vaccines what they do not realize

793
00:36:45,410 --> 00:36:43,590
is that they are placing their children

794
00:36:47,930 --> 00:36:45,420
at much higher risk of contracting the

795
00:36:50,180 --> 00:36:47,940
disease of course a lot of children are

796
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:50,190
protected by herd immunity but where the

797
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:51,330
propaganda machine of the

798
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:53,130
anti-vaccination Lobby has done its work

799
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:53,890
there

800
00:36:58,890 --> 00:36:56,170
is now herd immunity and children get

801
00:37:00,960 --> 00:36:58,900
sick the other reason that expecting one

802
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:00,970
hundred percent efficacy or safety is

803
00:37:05,790 --> 00:37:03,850
harmful is more complex it has to do

804
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:05,800
with expectations and how people treat

805
00:37:10,290 --> 00:37:08,650
failure in medical treatment because of

806
00:37:12,060 --> 00:37:10,300
the high success rate of most modern

807
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:12,070
medical treatments and the

808
00:37:15,660 --> 00:37:13,570
well-established human weakness in

809
00:37:17,070 --> 00:37:15,670
understanding probabilities when a

810
00:37:19,620 --> 00:37:17,080
doctor says to a patient that the

811
00:37:21,990 --> 00:37:19,630
procedures has say a ninety percent

812
00:37:23,810 --> 00:37:22,000
success rate the patient naturally

813
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:23,820
expects to be in the much larger group

814
00:37:29,010 --> 00:37:27,130
when as inevitably happens ten percent

815
00:37:31,530 --> 00:37:29,020
of the patients find themselves on the

816
00:37:34,260 --> 00:37:31,540
side of failure many if not most of them

817
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:34,270
do not take this too well what very

818
00:37:38,580 --> 00:37:35,770
often results is the demand for

819
00:37:40,140 --> 00:37:38,590
compensation I'll elaborate on the

820
00:37:42,690 --> 00:37:40,150
effects of the demand for compensation

821
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:42,700
later but I want to talk first about the

822
00:37:47,820 --> 00:37:44,890
saying when it happens to you it's one

823
00:37:49,770 --> 00:37:47,830
hundred percent of course that statement

824
00:37:51,210 --> 00:37:49,780
is true in a sense but that does not

825
00:37:54,290 --> 00:37:51,220
mean that we have to accept it as a

826
00:37:56,790 --> 00:37:54,300
society counter to many people's view

827
00:37:59,610 --> 00:37:56,800
society does put a price on things such

828
00:38:02,280 --> 00:37:59,620
as human life and well-being no society

829
00:38:03,630 --> 00:38:02,290
will save a life at any cost and only so

830
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:03,640
much money you spend on things like

831
00:38:07,770 --> 00:38:06,130
improving road safety because the cost

832
00:38:10,110 --> 00:38:07,780
of reducing road deaths would make

833
00:38:12,900 --> 00:38:10,120
driving cars and realistically expensive

834
00:38:14,670 --> 00:38:12,910
so as a society we decided that a

835
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:14,680
certain number of deaths per year is an

836
00:38:19,740 --> 00:38:16,570
acceptable price to pay for affordable

837
00:38:21,990 --> 00:38:19,750
transportation now of course for each of

838
00:38:24,420 --> 00:38:22,000
the dead and maimed and their families

839
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:24,430
the price is unacceptable yet we rarely

840
00:38:28,650 --> 00:38:26,290
hear families of road accident victims

841
00:38:30,570 --> 00:38:28,660
demand that we make all roads dear lane

842
00:38:32,670 --> 00:38:30,580
fully separated roads with the

843
00:38:36,060 --> 00:38:32,680
technologically in for speed limit of 50

844
00:38:38,190 --> 00:38:36,070
km/h the reason is that even those

845
00:38:41,070 --> 00:38:38,200
affected realized the implications are

846
00:38:43,890 --> 00:38:41,080
unacceptable with medicine people often

847
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:43,900
do not take the same approach the reason

848
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:45,370
is not clear to me but it could be

849
00:38:48,810 --> 00:38:47,170
because people know a lot less about how

850
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:48,820
medicine works than they do about road

851
00:38:52,740 --> 00:38:50,770
safety it could also be because

852
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:52,750
emedicine there is almost invariably

853
00:38:57,540 --> 00:38:54,970
someone to blame as their medical

854
00:38:59,700 --> 00:38:57,550
professionals involved whatever the case

855
00:39:01,200 --> 00:38:59,710
may be can generally be said that people

856
00:39:03,870 --> 00:39:01,210
are much more willing to use the

857
00:39:05,670 --> 00:39:03,880
statement when it happens to you it's

858
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:05,680
one hundred percent when discussing

859
00:39:09,630 --> 00:39:06,970
medical risk then

860
00:39:10,830 --> 00:39:09,640
when they discuss other risks basically

861
00:39:13,370 --> 00:39:10,840
there is a different standard for

862
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:13,380
medicine and it's a much harsher one

863
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:16,090
that harsh a standard also manifests

864
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:19,090
itself in statements like 18,000 people

865
00:39:24,060 --> 00:39:22,330
a year die due to medical errors I will

866
00:39:26,460 --> 00:39:24,070
not venture to dispute the statistical

867
00:39:28,770 --> 00:39:26,470
figure I will for the sake of this talk

868
00:39:32,100 --> 00:39:28,780
assume that it is accurate the question

869
00:39:34,170 --> 00:39:32,110
that must be asked is this of the 18,000

870
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:34,180
people how many would have died with no

871
00:39:39,450 --> 00:39:37,450
medical intervention at all as most of

872
00:39:41,700 --> 00:39:39,460
the information is based on estimates it

873
00:39:43,530 --> 00:39:41,710
is difficult to know for sure but I've

874
00:39:45,330 --> 00:39:43,540
done a little bit of research and it

875
00:39:47,460 --> 00:39:45,340
seems a large majority of those whose

876
00:39:49,650 --> 00:39:47,470
des des is attributed to medical error

877
00:39:51,870 --> 00:39:49,660
died did you to failure to provide

878
00:39:54,450 --> 00:39:51,880
appropriate medical treatment only a

879
00:39:56,610 --> 00:39:54,460
small minority died due to commission

880
00:39:58,650 --> 00:39:56,620
rather than a mission and even in those

881
00:40:00,560 --> 00:39:58,660
cases it is not clear how they would

882
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:00,570
have fared with no medical treatment so

883
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:03,610
it is very rare indeed for someone to

884
00:40:07,350 --> 00:40:05,170
come to into a hospital with a non

885
00:40:10,380 --> 00:40:07,360
life-threatening condition and end up

886
00:40:13,650 --> 00:40:10,390
dead actual cases of real negligence are

887
00:40:15,570 --> 00:40:13,660
very rare too so next time proponents of

888
00:40:18,720 --> 00:40:15,580
alternative medicine quote that figure

889
00:40:21,690 --> 00:40:18,730
ask them these questions one how many

890
00:40:25,290 --> 00:40:21,700
people has medicine saved this year hint

891
00:40:27,180 --> 00:40:25,300
a lot more than 18,000 to how many of

892
00:40:30,390 --> 00:40:27,190
the 18,000 would have died without any

893
00:40:32,610 --> 00:40:30,400
treatment 3 what was the life expectancy

894
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:32,620
in China before scientific medicine and

895
00:40:38,900 --> 00:40:36,370
what is it now I referred earlier to the

896
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:38,910
compensation demands in their effects

897
00:40:43,500 --> 00:40:41,290
doctors in the West pay huge amounts of

898
00:40:45,270 --> 00:40:43,510
money to insurance companies they pay

899
00:40:47,340 --> 00:40:45,280
those amounts because despite the

900
00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:47,350
overall rate of success being very high

901
00:40:52,530 --> 00:40:49,570
and despite the fact that failure is not

902
00:40:54,180 --> 00:40:52,540
only expected it is inevitable those few

903
00:40:56,520 --> 00:40:54,190
cases of failure are likely to see

904
00:40:59,760 --> 00:40:56,530
compensation and often win very

905
00:41:01,380 --> 00:40:59,770
significant amounts an obstetrician I

906
00:41:02,970 --> 00:41:01,390
spoke to some time ago said his

907
00:41:05,970 --> 00:41:02,980
insurance policy cost more than one

908
00:41:08,940 --> 00:41:05,980
hundred thousand dollars a year I let

909
00:41:12,570 --> 00:41:08,950
that sink in for a moment one hundred

910
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:12,580
thousand dollars per year they're not

911
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:14,770
many Australians who earn that much it

912
00:41:18,510 --> 00:41:16,930
is successful obstetrician pays this

913
00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:18,520
exorbitant amount because he will

914
00:41:21,319 --> 00:41:19,170
inevitably

915
00:41:23,599 --> 00:41:21,329
be sued and the question is only how

916
00:41:25,670 --> 00:41:23,609
much you will have to pay from an

917
00:41:28,460 --> 00:41:25,680
actuary perspective it is a wonder that

918
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:28,470
he can get any insurance at all the

919
00:41:32,839 --> 00:41:30,210
result is that this successful and

920
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:32,849
experienced doctor is available to only

921
00:41:36,380 --> 00:41:34,650
a very small minority of patients who

922
00:41:39,109 --> 00:41:36,390
can pay the fees that are required to

923
00:41:40,549 --> 00:41:39,119
cover the insurance the doctor hat also

924
00:41:42,559 --> 00:41:40,559
has to work privately as much as

925
00:41:44,569 --> 00:41:42,569
possible to finance this and other costs

926
00:41:47,030 --> 00:41:44,579
so we'll try to work as little as

927
00:41:49,190 --> 00:41:47,040
possible in the public system I believe

928
00:41:52,370 --> 00:41:49,200
the harm caused to society by cases such

929
00:41:54,559 --> 00:41:52,380
as this is obvious we go back to

930
00:41:56,599 --> 00:41:54,569
vaccines it's worth pointing out that

931
00:41:59,150 --> 00:41:56,609
but scenes are not and cannot be one

932
00:42:00,470 --> 00:41:59,160
hundred percent safe the avn make that

933
00:42:02,809 --> 00:42:00,480
statement as if it's some kind of

934
00:42:05,599 --> 00:42:02,819
conspiracy or secret but it's nothing of

935
00:42:08,180 --> 00:42:05,609
this sort information about risks and

936
00:42:09,950 --> 00:42:08,190
side effects is publicly available but

937
00:42:12,289 --> 00:42:09,960
what it shows is that vaccines are so

938
00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:12,299
extremely safe that any concern raised

939
00:42:16,789 --> 00:42:14,690
by the anti-vaccine lobby are baseless

940
00:42:18,950 --> 00:42:16,799
personal anecdotes are used to provide

941
00:42:20,270 --> 00:42:18,960
an angle similar to the when it happens

942
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:20,280
to you each one hundred percent thing

943
00:42:24,980 --> 00:42:23,130
but that is not how medicine works it

944
00:42:28,190 --> 00:42:24,990
works by using statistics on large

945
00:42:30,620 --> 00:42:28,200
numbers merrell dori for example claims

946
00:42:32,390 --> 00:42:30,630
that her son was injured by vaccines how

947
00:42:34,670 --> 00:42:32,400
does she know that well she just does

948
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:34,680
and she does because she's as

949
00:42:38,240 --> 00:42:36,450
knowledgeable about statistics as she is

950
00:42:41,030 --> 00:42:38,250
about just science in general which is

951
00:42:44,420 --> 00:42:41,040
not at all like many people she confuses

952
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:44,430
correlation with causation I being an

953
00:42:48,770 --> 00:42:46,170
atheist and therefore completely lacking

954
00:42:51,079 --> 00:42:48,780
any moral compass decided to carry out

955
00:42:52,490 --> 00:42:51,089
an experiment and after my first son

956
00:42:54,799 --> 00:42:52,500
turned out to be on the autistic

957
00:42:56,690 --> 00:42:54,809
spectrum I decided to scientifically

958
00:42:59,480 --> 00:42:56,700
test the hypothesis that vaccines cause

959
00:43:01,430 --> 00:42:59,490
autism I recruited my second son and

960
00:43:03,380 --> 00:43:01,440
then the third to the experiment and

961
00:43:05,809 --> 00:43:03,390
subjected all three to the full schedule

962
00:43:08,359 --> 00:43:05,819
of vaccines based on this experiment

963
00:43:10,099 --> 00:43:08,369
with N equals 3 I can say that vaccines

964
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:10,109
cause autism in one-third of all

965
00:43:16,309 --> 00:43:13,170
children or perhaps he one-third of all

966
00:43:19,819 --> 00:43:16,319
boys or perhaps in just one third of all

967
00:43:21,589 --> 00:43:19,829
my boys incidentally vaccines also

968
00:43:24,819 --> 00:43:21,599
caused shortsightedness in one-third of

969
00:43:27,049 --> 00:43:24,829
boys and asthma in a third of boys

970
00:43:31,130 --> 00:43:27,059
surprisingly vaccines do not cause any

971
00:43:33,180 --> 00:43:31,140
two of these in any one child jokes

972
00:43:35,130 --> 00:43:33,190
aside the only way to find out

973
00:43:37,710 --> 00:43:35,140
is really happening is using statistics

974
00:43:39,660 --> 00:43:37,720
which is what was done in a large number

975
00:43:41,970 --> 00:43:39,670
of real studies with real controls and

976
00:43:44,220 --> 00:43:41,980
proper statistics and they show that

977
00:43:46,500 --> 00:43:44,230
vaccines do not cause over to autism and

978
00:43:48,150 --> 00:43:46,510
are generally extremely safe except for

979
00:43:51,599 --> 00:43:48,160
people with some very specific and very

980
00:43:53,490 --> 00:43:51,609
rare genetic conditions society would be

981
00:43:56,099 --> 00:43:53,500
much better off if people realized how

982
00:43:57,660 --> 00:43:56,109
important statistics is in medicine how

983
00:43:59,700 --> 00:43:57,670
it makes the difference between useful

984
00:44:01,440 --> 00:43:59,710
and unuseful treatments and that one

985
00:44:03,180 --> 00:44:01,450
hundred percent is not a realistic

986
00:44:06,420 --> 00:44:03,190
expectation for the efficacy or safety

987
00:44:08,130 --> 00:44:06,430
of any treatment before deciding on

988
00:44:09,720 --> 00:44:08,140
medical treatment people should ask

989
00:44:12,420 --> 00:44:09,730
their doctors about the statistics

990
00:44:13,710 --> 00:44:12,430
related to the proposed treatment they

991
00:44:15,390 --> 00:44:13,720
should remember not to expect one

992
00:44:17,550 --> 00:44:15,400
hundred percent safety or efficacy and

993
00:44:20,190 --> 00:44:17,560
that they may end up being on the wrong

994
00:44:22,650 --> 00:44:20,200
side of statistics those who consider

995
00:44:24,300 --> 00:44:22,660
such risks to be unacceptable should

996
00:44:27,089 --> 00:44:24,310
look at other activities in their lives

997
00:44:29,130 --> 00:44:27,099
such as driving cars and realize that we

998
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:29,140
all accept risks every day of our lives

999
00:44:33,839 --> 00:44:31,450
when we consider the probability of

1000
00:44:49,730 --> 00:44:33,849
things going well to be good enough but

1001
00:44:53,570 --> 00:44:51,830
thank you for listening to the skeptic

1002
00:44:55,070 --> 00:44:53,580
zone over the next weeks we'll be

1003
00:44:57,710 --> 00:44:55,080
bringing you those interviews from

1004
00:44:59,600 --> 00:44:57,720
dragoncon until then you might want to

1005
00:45:05,840 --> 00:44:59,610
check out the website of Australian

1006
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:05,850
skeptics ww skeptics com au and once

1007
00:45:09,950 --> 00:45:07,770
you're there if you click the link at

1008
00:45:13,100 --> 00:45:09,960
the top of the page that says resources

1009
00:45:15,590 --> 00:45:13,110
you'll find the new videos page lots of

1010
00:45:18,470 --> 00:45:15,600
videos there including James Randi in

1011
00:45:20,570 --> 00:45:18,480
Australia and you'll see why one of the

1012
00:45:24,410 --> 00:45:20,580
reasons why the Australian skeptics

1013
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:24,420
kicked off in 1980 so until next week or

1014
00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:26,850
possibly the week after hmm depends how

1015
00:45:30,830 --> 00:45:28,490
i feel after getting home with jet lag

1016
00:45:37,180 --> 00:45:30,840
this is Richard Saunders signing off

1017
00:45:43,580 --> 00:45:39,590
you've been listening to the skeptic

1018
00:45:47,390 --> 00:45:43,590
zone visit our website at wwc a petting

1019
00:45:50,030 --> 00:45:47,400
zoo TV for comments contacts and extra

1020
00:46:01,609 --> 00:45:50,040
video reports